Johns Beharry is a Bitcoin designer building a platform for Lightning builders called Bolt.Fun.
In our conversation, we explored the importance of design in Bitcoin, the state of the Bitcoin builder ecosystem, and the Legends of Lightning tournament being hosted by Bolt.Fun to get more builders working on Lightning to accelerate global Bitcoin adoption.
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00:00 - Intro
02:14 - Johns Beharry Intro
11:58 - The Importance of Design in Bitcoin
15:18 - The Bitcoin Design Guide
30:42 - Design Priorities in the Bitcoin Ecosystem
34:41 - What is Bolt.Fun?
47:17 - Builders in the Legends of Lightning Tournament
52:29 - The Health of the Bitcoin Builder Community
1:03:49 - Bitcoin Open Source Grants
1:16:44 - The Lightning Round
Johns Beharry - 00:00:00:
When you use something that has great design, that's designed very well, has good experience, you don't notice that it has great use experience. Something that I'm trying to help people understand is like at these hackathons and stuff, they tend to be very coding heavy. We need all all types of people to be able to for bitcoin to take over. Right? We need people for marketing, design. Let's get more people in the space. We don't need to reallocate anything. We just need more people. The idea of having a privacy, like a wallet, specifically doing privacy stuff, and one that doesn't I don't like it. All wallets should be privacy wallets, or take that into consideration. You don't want to end up in a situation where you get your salary and then you go out to a club or something in the middle of night, you pay the taxi, and now the taxi drops you home, and they see that you have like, a huge UTXO that you control. Right.
Kevin Rooke - 00:01:05:
John's Bahari is a bitcoin designer building a platform for Lightning builders called Bolt.fun. In our discussion, we explored the importance of design in the bitcoin industry. We discussed the state of builders in the bitcoin and Lightning ecosystem today, and we even talked about legends of Lightning, the tournament being hosted by Bolt.fun to accelerate bitcoin adoption globally. I've also added Jon Snow today's show splits. So if you enjoy this episode and if you learned something new, the best way to let me know is by sending in sats over the Lightning Network. You can use any Podcasting 2.0 app, but my favorite to use is Fountain quick shoutout. Today's show is sponsored by Voltage. Voltage is the industry standard and next generation provider of Lightning network infrastructure. Today's show is also sponsored by Stakwork. Stakwork is a lightning powered transcription tool that takes the best of AIS and humans to generate better, faster, and less expensive transcripts. We'll have more from Voltage and Stakwork later in the show. Jon's, welcome to the show. Today I am thrilled to discuss all that you're doing in the bitcoin design community and the work you're doing at Bolton. But before we get into it, let's rewind and give listeners a bit of perspective on how you got into bitcoin and how you discovered the Lightning network.
Johns Beharry - 00:02:33:
Yeah, sure. Well, getting into bitcoin, that's a story of pain and especially in the payments realm. So I'm from an island in the Caribbean called St. Lucia, and there's 200,000 people there. So we don't really get a lot of access to some of these cool fintech tools where there's cash, app, PayPal and stuff like that. We didn't have PayPal, but they do these weird things at a time where you would be able to get paid from a client or something. Because I was running a web design agency and they would hold the money for 21 days, and then you could transfer like 500 at a time that doesn't exist anymore. You can't do that. Even so, it's just like you can just use it to spend, not to receive. And there's one guy, Gabriel Abed, he said it in a pretty interesting way. He's like, we could build international class products in the Caribbean, like fast products or whatever, but we can't get paid for them internationally. So there's a lot of pain in the payment realm. And I think it was around 2013 when I finally decided, like, hey, this is something that could probably solve these problems. A bank that never goes offline that thing. You could send funds on the weekends and stuff like that. We could receive funds from clients. So I started to redesign people's websites just, like, randomly, unsolicited. But I didn't really get a lot of bites, not a lot of interest. I wasn't connected up in the industry, and it was very small back then, so it took a few years. I kind of, like, got distracted with other things. My agency and I think around 2017 or so, there was a lot of Hype building back up again, right? So I'm like, okay, let's see what's going on. And at this point, there's a whole bunch of these Token projects and this and that. The space was really different from what I remembered, right? So I took some time to try to figure out, like, okay, what's happening right now? What's going on? And spent like, a year or so going to conferences, researching and stuff like that. And it turns out that pretty much all those Token projects or whatever, it's all BS, and they're trying to just get some bag. I created this thing called the Dogecoin Test. So I remember south by southwest. I was there 2017 or 18, I can't remember again, trying to learn how the space is developed, and I'm like, okay, well, those short of the time before Elon Musk, it was like, this cool community kind of thing behind it. Now it's like, people speculating a little too hard, but people are like, oh, yeah, I want to do this token. But I'm like, Why do you need it? It's like, oh, for utility. Why don't you use Dogecoin? Going at the time, it's like, fast and cheap, right? And they're like, well, you know what? We really want to get paid, essentially. We want to raise money, and this is how we're kind of doing it. And all the utility stuff that they were faffing on about, it's like, just nonsense, right? Yeah. And then I got into, like, okay. I'm like, okay, this is like bullshit now. I was looking at problems with scalability and stuff. I went really deep into that topic, and I'm realizing, like, okay, blockchains don't scale. Found out about the Lightning Network. And I'm like, all right, Bitcoin, this is where it's at. A couple of years ago, I reached out to Steve Lee. He posted something about some redesign of bitcoin core gui or, like, what kind of UX improvements. And I sent him some stuff. I had a meeting with him. They were trying to recruit for square crypto. It was called at the time spiral a designer. So I did an interview with him, and he said that they had spoken to about 50 or so designers. So what they were trying to do is to improve the user experience of bitcoin, get some more designers into the space, because for mass adoption, we need good UX, right? People need to be able to use these things anyway. So he's like, okay, well interviewed a bunch of really cool people. It seems that one designer can solve all the problems of bitcoin open source and the UX things relating to that. So it's like, let's start a community. So I was one of the first set of people in there, and we're like, okay, the community needs a project. And then that goes into the bitcoin design guide. I got a grant to do research on payments and privacy, and specifically, I was trying to figure out how to make a consistent UX between on and off chain, but not compromise on the principles of the philosophies of what bitcoin is and kind of like being a bit more true to the principle while giving a more familiar interface to folks. So it's like, you don't have to abstract everything away from people, but introduce the unique concepts of bitcoin in a kind of familiar way to them.
Kevin Rooke - 00:08:42:
That's really interesting. So I want to step back to your first introduction to bitcoin when you mentioned the pain that you had seen in payments in st. Lucia. So when you first learned about bitcoin, you were thinking of it already in the sense of a payments network, is that right?
Johns Beharry - 00:09:00:
Unfortunately, yes. I didn't get the whole store of value thing because for me, I didn't have much value to store, but I needed to be able to receive money. I remember buying one bitcoin. I had to, like, western union one guy from local bitcoins. I'm, like, really nervous. And, yeah, I was just, like, spending it on renewing my $9 domain name.
Kevin Rooke - 00:09:35:
Oh, interesting. That's really fascinating. And then you transition to working on design work and in the bitcoin ecosystem, and you meet up with Steve lee, and you start discussing about how to improve design in the bitcoin ecosystem. Was the design work also targeted towards the medium of exchange use case of payments, or was it also about the store of value when you were first having these discussions?
Johns Beharry - 00:10:06:
There's a lot of different angles that the bitcoin design community and stuff has to tackle. Right. One side is, like, the user experience around handling private keys so that you could say is, like, very attached to the store value use case. But I don't think it's just one track. There's, like, all these different components that need attention, whether it's the backing up of keys, the memorization of keys. There's a very interesting project by this guy called Thor where he was using like sound and dance and stuff like that to help people in different cultures, like utilize or memorize their private keys and stuff, like alternative ways than twelve words and stuff. So yeah, it's really multifaceted that we have to look at this. And the great thing about the Bitcoin design community is like, now there's finally, like a collection of people who care about this topic of improved user experience. They have a place to gather, they have a place to discuss. And whatever aspect, whether it's payments, whether it's privacy, whether it's the subscriptions, whatever else it is, they can tackle their own things. And we're all kind of like contributing to the larger goal of increasing mass adoption through better UX. I wouldn't say it was like a specific area per se.
Kevin Rooke - 00:11:56:
Right. Now, when you think about design across the board, I haven't had many designers on this podcast yet, but I really want to dive into the importance of design. Can you speak to people who are skeptical of the importance of design? I think there tends to be sometimes, especially in tech, people are very interested in programmers and engineers and that they look at these hard and difficult tasks and they say, we need more of them. And they kind of push to the side some of the designs, some of the refinements, some of the marketing, some of the they may call them like software disciplines or whatever different aspects that incorporate a product or an app, but don't necessarily involve the programming and the engineering that some of the front end and back end development does. How do you make the case for design? Can you reach out to those people on the show and say, here's why design is important?
Johns Beharry - 00:13:01:
I think when you use something that has great design, that's designed very well, has good experience, you don't notice that it has great user experience. Right. So I think one example of why it's important or the impact of design there was I don't know if it was this year or last year, the past two years have just been really condensed now. Right. But RobinHood, yeah, they had a little design problem. I heard about some time ago where some young kid was trading and because of the way some balance was shown, they were using some leverage trading stuff. Because of how the balance was shown, they thought that they had to pay back like half a million dollars or something that they lost, and that person ended up taking their life. And that's super unfortunate. And that's an easy example of the kind of especially when you're dealing with money. Right. That's a great example of the responsibility that we have to our users and stuff and educating and making things be very clear for them. I saw that and I'm like, wow, as a designer in the field. Now, this is from bad work, from not paying attention to some of these details. This is like a reality of what can happen. So I know it's a bit of a solemn example, but I think it shows us off quite well the importance of design.
Kevin Rooke - 00:15:00:
Yeah, that's really interesting. So this user didn't even have to pay this half million dollars, but it just showed as a flaw in the.
Johns Beharry - 00:15:06:
App or their perception of it or whatever. Right.
Kevin Rooke - 00:15:12:
They just didn't understand the rules or whatever.
Johns Beharry - 00:15:15:
Kevin Rooke - 00:15:18:
So let's go into the bitcoin design guide. Right. Because this is one of the big projects that this design community has been working on. It's one of the ones that I think a lot of people on Twitter are familiar with. It's gotten quite a bit of attention. Can you talk to me about what it is and what it set out to accomplish, specifically the design guide?
Johns Beharry - 00:15:37:
Yeah. Well, okay, so in this space back in 2020, when the community kicked off again, there wasn't, like a gathering place for designers. So everyone's kind of, like, working in their own silos, right. What happens when people work in silos and don't share information? Right, exactly. So what we're trying to do is say, like, hey, we're just looking at the patterns that are already existing. We're trying to make some improvements on them as well. As a community, there's not one person just doing all this. It's a community effort, and it's always evolving. Right. So yeah, so the guide is basically a collection of some of these patterns, but then you could show off these patterns and whatnot. But it's also important to understand some of the underlying things. And I got to pull you up on this. You said, like, softer skills. Softer skills and design being softer skills. No, it can be quite technical. Yeah, it can be quite technical. So I think one of the things that I try to push for within the bitcoin design community is for designers to kind of, like, understand some of these underlying components that make up a wallet or whatever user experience so that they can then create new patterns themselves. Right. Because it's a small group of core contributors. But we need to get more and more people contributing to the guide coming up with patterns. We need to get more people in general coming into the space. Right. So the guide also helps with that. So you could be a designer already looking for a pattern in the Bitcoin space, or you could be one who is trying to get started into the space, and the guy kind of, like, facilitates both of those routes.
Kevin Rooke - 00:17:42:
Right. And then so for companies also in the space, is this something that they're going to be referencing as well and saying, here's how our app should be built? Because here's this open source collection of design ideas and principles that the rest of the community has kind of adopted. You think that it's going to cause other companies in the space to modify their designs in return?
Johns Beharry - 00:18:05:
Well, I hope so, and I hope it's a continuous feedback loop, right? Because it needs to like, Bitcoin is ever evolving, right? We need those companies to then feedback into the guide to help improve it and to share the knowledge and stuff. Now we have this whole Taro thing that's going to be interesting for design explorations as well. But, yeah, there are several projects that are starting new, or I can't name them off the top of my head, but there are projects which are existing as well that the designers in those companies are part of the community and they reference the designs and stuff like that. One thing I'm really trying I've been on a campaign for is contact based UI, but it ties into some UTXO, coin selection kind of things as well. And then it's able to kind of like help you get more analytics on like, your local wallet about like your spending behaviors and stuff. So then you could say, like, hey, let's open a channel with this person because I interact with them quite often.
Kevin Rooke - 00:19:19:
So contact base, how would that work?
Johns Beharry - 00:19:25:
It's become kind of like a meme because I've been talking about it for so long within the bitcoin design community. But yeah, a contact is basically a label, right? Okay, yeah, that's it. And you're just reusing the label. But again, you present it in a way that's familiar with someone, to someone, which is a contact, right? By doing it that way, then you get all these added benefits of like, okay, these are the coins that I received from someone. There's no privacy implications if I send it back to them. I might be consolidating some stuff if I send it back, but I'm also not revealing anything new to them. But then you say you can start giving the user kind of like prompts of saying, like, hey, you don't have enough UTXOs that this knows about. So who is privacy? Do you want to kind of like reveal out of which group, out of which person, which entity that you've transacted with do you want to use the UTXOs for? And now there's going to become a link, right? So again, that's just an example of still staying tuned to the principles of Bitcoin and how it works and stuff like that. Not abstracting it completely and doing automatic coin selection where nobody has control of their privacy. Privacy is choice, right? So if you take away that choice from someone, then you're like, you have none.
Kevin Rooke - 00:21:07:
Right now when you're thinking about design improvements and different ways for interacting with payments, we have two different sets of constraints in Bitcoin right now. We have Bitcoin and we have Lightning, and they have different mechanisms for sending payments and different like, there's just a different flow that the user has to go through. When you focus your effort on better design, is it mostly designed for Lightning invoices? Is it bitcoin payments? What does that mix look like today?
Johns Beharry - 00:21:43:
What are the differences that you see sorry for bringing it back to you, but what are the differences you see with the whether it's payment flows between Lightning and onset?
Kevin Rooke - 00:21:54:
Well, I think the first one is just that in order to get on Lightning in some wallets, you can't send bitcoin base chain transaction, right? Like if you're trying to send a tip to this podcast, if you're trying to do value for value and you have bitcoin on chain, you can have poor experience trying to do that.
Johns Beharry - 00:22:20:
Okay, but there's applications like Muun, for example, or otherwise implement submarine swaps and stuff, right?
Kevin Rooke - 00:22:29:
There are a few and things like Wallet of Satoshi can deposit on chain and have it sent out over Lightning. But then you also have the idea of Lightning invoices, right, where it's just and channels where you have to have the inbound capacity. That's just like a different thing that people have to consider when a merchant on chain does not have that same consideration that a merchant on Lightning does.
Johns Beharry - 00:22:55:
Okay, I see the angle. I think on a higher level, the payment flows are pretty much the same. There's invoices and addresses and I typically call them like there's another project that part of that research was trying to come up with a pattern language for bitcoin, and one of them is this reference of an architecture book. Like, I've heard of a passion language, so I was kind of like starting to come up with some words and stuff that a normal person could identify. So instead of invoices and addresses, I call them like a payment request. Ultimately they have the same function, which is like, you use them once you generate it and it has the payment destination and sometimes it can have the amount or other metadata encapsulated in a bit 21, but you're all right. On the level of more granular interaction in terms of like booting up bootstrapping, there are some differences there. I think liquidity, there's a lot of efforts being put into the liquidity management side of things. Again, that's a part of UX. If we just need to like, try to try to focus on right. And there are some people who are doing it within the community, but we need more and more people to help push those kind of like design research and stuff forward. There's a project, I think, LNDg. I can't remember I came across it recently, that they're trying to create like an interface for this channel management stuff. But I think, yes, there are gaps in which these differences haven't yet been bridged as yet. But I think it's better to look at them or try to look at them as the same thing on chain and Lightning instead of two separate things. While it's like Muun, I use it quite often, and it has a pretty nice, UX, very solid, kind of like application Breez as well, besides the syncing part with Breez, which is also kind of interesting because that's like a full node going on your device, which I think is like, freaking amazing. But like something like Muun that says, hey, there's Lightning and bitcoin there. There's an initiative within the design community to have this unified QR codes. They're a bit more dense, right?
Kevin Rooke - 00:26:05:
Johns Beharry - 00:26:05:
But that's one of those things in which we can kind of like bridge the two together because explaining to someone Lightning and on chain and stuff like that, it is kind of difficult. Right? It's like is Lightning bitcoin. Like, what's going on there? That kind of thing. Yeah. Another way I like to talk about it is I say insulting Lightning Network, which is like a very technical thing. I tend to say Lightning fast bitcoin payments or bitcoin Lightning payments or something like this. It's more like the use case instead. So it's a fast way to transact bitcoin instead of talking about the technology part. But, yeah, ultimately I think we need to kind of, like, try to bridge those things together and look at it as a whole as experience. Because until on chain gets priced out and stuff or whatever, like transacting as much on chain, people are going to be interfacing on chain, right, to create channels, whatever, whether they have in the background or whatever. So I simply just need to spend some time to figure out how we can kind of, like, make sure that it's a unified experience.
Kevin Rooke - 00:27:26:
Right. And we're still in that kind of awkward stage where Lightning payments and bitcoin payments, for some users, it doesn't matter. Like, they can use, it's okay if they wait ten minutes, it's okay if it's a dollar fees in this stage. It seems to be a bit of a harder sell right now to say, here's why you need Lightning to use for this set of payments. But I think over time, yeah, eventually you price out on chain or you just recognize the speed is important for all these different apps that you want to use, and Lightning becomes the tool that people use to make payments. But I get DMs all the time on Twitter that are like, I heard about Lightning. I'm enjoying your stuff. How do I buy Lightning? What's the token? And it's like there's just still a bit of a gap there in framing those two topics, bitcoin and Lightning. And people just intuitively think these are two things. They each have a token. What's? The Lightning token. I want to buy it. Right, exactly. This leads into the unified QR code idea that you brought up. I think I saw this at Bitcoin 2022 with I think it was Cash App presenting that they were planning to integrate that is that correct?
Johns Beharry - 00:28:46:
Yeah, it's really good to anyone. It's literally things that have been existing forever.
Kevin Rooke - 00:28:57:
How long ago was that introduced?
Johns Beharry - 00:29:04:
21. You can add any other parameters to it. Right. And then in both eleven, it says, like, hey, you can also add this Lightning parameter equal invoice, right. In the 21. Right. So you could use Lightning and then the invoice for the URL. Or you can use bit. 21 bitcoin colon. I prefer using bitcoin colon. Right. But because when you click on something, then it opens up an app. It should be the bitcoin app. And just in terms of naming, having this separation is so difficult to explain. Lightning, even as good as I think Muun is, when you get people to download it and then they're looking at it, they're like, so I want to receive but there's bitcoin and Lightning. What is this? And then you have to go through a whole thing. Ideally, you're spending the time instead talking about bitcoin and the value of it and what you can do. And then when these interfaces start to become a little bit more intelligent and stuff, like, for example, through the contact finger, I'm explaining, then you can say like, hey, this is how you upgrade to this. And while it sats becoming a bit more dynamic and informative and stuff like that, you get your first payment on chain, but then do you want to be able to have cheaper transactions? And then they're learning as part of the usage of it. Right, okay.
Kevin Rooke - 00:30:42:
I got one more design question for you, and then I want to get into Bolt.Fun and Legends of Lightning tournament. If you could get the builders of bitcoin apps and the bitcoin ecosystem in one room and have a discussion about what to prioritize and what everyone needs to come together to kind of like work together on and improve. What are some of those high priority items that you think the design community should really be working on today?
Johns Beharry - 00:31:15:
That's a really good question. Let's see. High priority items. I do have my agenda with contacts, first of all, but let's see. I think one of those things would be there are different stakeholders, different projects in the space that can do more work together. I think Spiral, I haven't used it very much, but they implemented some coin joint stuff, I believe. Right, spiral.
Kevin Rooke - 00:31:54:
Johns Beharry - 00:31:55:
Yeah, they implemented some coin joint stuff and whatever your take is on coin join or whatever. But I think what I would I don't like the idea of having a privacy wallet, for one. Right. And I think they are like especially once we sold transact on chain, I think they are we're not doing a very good job at informing people how their privacy could be rooted and those kind of thing. So I would like us to tackle that privacy aspect of things. And again, you don't want to end up in a situation where you get your salary and then you go out to a club or something in the middle of the night, you pay the taxi, and now the taxi drops you home, and they see that you have the huge utxo that you control. Right. People are gonna start when, When more people start getting into bitcoin, they are going to start getting a bit more sophisticated and understand these kind of things. Right. So I think it's important for us to pay attention to that with regards to mass adoption, because it would be a bit of a disservice to people if we don't. And having the idea of having a privacy, like a wallet, specifically doing privacy stuff, and one that doesn't, I don't like that. Right. Like, all wallets should be privacy wallets or take that into consideration. So I think that's probably something that I would pay a lot of attention to.
Kevin Rooke - 00:33:36:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it's something I feel like it's a bit of a black box for me. Like, I'm still not super sophisticated when it comes to privacy. In all aspects, you learn about bitcoin privacy, and then you realize there's privacy in the traditional web, and you have a lot of considerations there that just get abstracted away. And so it's a very deep rabbit hole of controlling your privacy. So I agree. I think better tools to illuminate that for people would be helpful. I hope you're enjoying the show so far. I just want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor, Voltage. Voltage is the industry standard for Lightning Network infrastructure, creating layer two applications and services on top of bitcoin starts with Voltage, where you can spin up nodes, get access to liquidity, optimize your node, and much more. Voltage is leading the way as the next generation provider of Lightning Network infrastructure. And if you want to get a free trial and start using Voltage today, you can do so at voltage.cloud. Okay, let's get into bolt.fun. Bolt.fun. This is a platform for Lightning builders. Can you explain the vision behind it and how it came to be?
Johns Beharry - 00:34:50:
Sure. Yeah. So within the bitcoin design community, we have this concept that has kind of formed, which is like, subcommunities. For example, albie, the Lightning browser extension, they became kind of like a subcommunity within bitcoin design. So they have, like, their own channel and Slack and many other projects have their own channels and stuff like that. And there are people who come into the ecosystem, like come into the community who want to contribute to those projects on the design side. And it's kind of like a lot of discussions and stuff happened there. I just want to talk about it and whatnot. So when I was writing up the chapter on payments and stuff like that in the bitcoin design guide, I was just starting to dump a lot of my research into this GitHub thing, markdown files and. Stuff. But then I started realizing a lot of people are coming into the community, and they're primarily the first project that you want to work on is a wallet. And I think we need a lot more wallets. Definitely, we need hundreds of thousands of wallets that cater to all different use cases, from a merchant, to a proposal seller, to a Pokemon Go that Christoph Ono from the Bitcoin design community likes to talk about his Pokemon wallet. We just need all different types of podcast wallet, all of these things, right? But they are like, small parts of a wallet that haven't been kind of addressed, like subscriptions, like, which wallet do subscription payments or batch payments, or all these, like, smaller patterns and stuff that could be quite useful. So I'm like, I wanted to kind of, like, encourage innovation and these smaller things. When I started looking into it, I'm like, there's no small projects for people to start tackling one, or at least they don't have the ideas of the small projects. They think it's like they have to start off with a big wallet term project because it's a huge undertaking designing a wallet, by the way. It's not like a weekend project to encourage a bit more innovation on smaller things. But then I realized also, we need to get more people into the industry, right? We need to attract more people in the industry so then they could tackle those smaller things as well, right? So, yeah, I started dumping my work there. Our vendor from Galore, he was also helping with some research at Pratt as well. And we were just, like, dumping all of stuff there. But it was slightly more technical because I'm a bit more technically inclined, coding wise. For me, my happy medium is between design and development. So the stuff that I was dumping that out there was kind of like, in between that as well. So for application developers, pretty much, right? So I think we had a concept of, like, okay, how might we get excite folks about experimenting and stuff? And then we're like, we could do events, hackathons and stuff. We started with shock. The web. We did a couple of those. We reference the guide, say, like, hey, you could read about the Lightning Network and Bitcoin there. You could go to the Bitcoin Design Guide to focus more on the UI side of things, et cetera. And in Shop, the Web, we also focused on helping people build web apps on Lightning because the majority of programmers in the world are web developers, right? That's how Ethereum and stuff like that took off their development community. So I'm like, there's a huge market there for people who have these web development skills. Even designers, they might know some HTML or something like that. They use WordPress or whatever. So I'm like, okay, let's try to tackle this and figure out how to put on events, and then we realize it's like, okay, we wrote this guide, but we realized there's so many other things that we need to write and we can't do it alone. So we're like, okay, let's build a blogging platform for Bitcoin builders and makers and stuff like that, so that they could share their tutorials and stories and process and progress and stuff like that. So we try to encourage something called building in public and learning in public. And this is really important because even now, when you search on some topics about Bitcoin, you're finding like, Bitcoin Talk or Reddit, kind of like forums. Right? But a lot of the chatter, like really cool chatters for builders and stuff, even for design, it's happening inside the slack, which is kind of ephemeral because the messages just get disappeared, right? It's also no structures and stuff. It's happening in telegram. Those just disappear. Right? So we're like, we need this condom to be searchable because when people are coming into the space saying, hey, I want to be a blockchain developer, a blockchain designer, because that's what they're thinking, right?
Kevin Rooke - 00:40:29:
Johns Beharry - 00:40:30:
They know Bitcoin, but it's bitcoin slow and you can't really do it's not flexible under the low. Right. So we need to have content that could capture them because you search anywhere else for building a music app or a podcast app for whatever, like other network or whatever, you could find tons of them. Right. But for Bitcoin, I think there's like one tutorial that I saw for, like, a music app, but like, what about the different languages and stuff like that that people want or different types of music or whatever. Right. So that's how the platform started to build up more features. And then we wanted to also experiment with some of the tech. So the comments, for example, we're using Master, right? Because we're like, okay, people coming into the space, we want they need to be able to find the content, but we should also try to help them learn about all the different tools and stuff that are in the space. And why not just make it very practical where they're using the platform and they're learning about those tools and they're learning about Master there. They're learning about Eleanor because of the only authentication that we use. Yeah.
Kevin Rooke - 00:41:49:
By signing in.
Johns Beharry - 00:41:50:
Exactly. So they're like, okay, wow, you can do these things with Bitcoin and it's cool and it's fun.
Kevin Rooke - 00:41:58:
Yeah. Are there any parallels that you have in mind for this Bolt.fun platform? Like, when you look at the Web Two world, I think of I look at Bolt.fun and I see a little bit of medium, a little bit of product hunt, a little bit of indie hackers. What are the parallels that you see and where is this headed? What do you want this project to become?
Johns Beharry - 00:42:21:
I think the way it's headed, it's looking something like an incubator accelerator kind of thing because, like, one we try to help people learn about the tech, refine their ideas. Because we did hackathons before and they were kind of like I think the longest one was a week and then four days, those projects just end up dying out, which is really sad because we see some cool stuff getting built and then the attention is only during the hackathon. And also the kind of people who are who end up doing well at these hackathons are people who are in the space already, right? Yeah. So that's not a good thing. So it's looking something like an accelerator, but just trying to help those projects that come out be sustainable. So big shout out to Folder Ventures for supporting. They're the one who's putting up the majority of prices on there. It's crazy amount of prices that we haven't for this event.
Kevin Rooke - 00:43:43:
Yeah, let's jump into that. Actually. This is the Legends of Lightning event.
Johns Beharry - 00:43:49:
Yeah. It's kind of insane. So the new format of these events moving away from the hackathons, right, which are kind of like these things where people just disappear, the teams don't stay formed and stuff like that. We're like, okay, let's stretch it out nine weeks. Let's allow people to learn, have design, have mentorship and stuff like that, have resources that they can lean on, have the opportunity to ask questions, share their stories, et cetera, share their ideas, recruit. All right, so when you register for Legends of Lightning, you see you registered and it's like whole directory of other people and you can reach out to them on Twitter or Discord to be able to form teams and stuff with them. And that's also solving a problem that we had in our hackathons where the people who had teams were people who already knew what they wanted, what was possible to do, right? Yeah. So Fulgur approached us, Oleg. He's like, hey, there's a bunch of events that are happening this fall. How can we kind of like, connect them together? We're like, yes, the whole thing is.
Kevin Rooke - 00:45:14:
To turn this into now an accelerator. And you can keep doing these cohorts every few months. You can add a new cohort and bring in new Lightning builders to space. Is that the idea?
Johns Beharry - 00:45:24:
Well, we'll see about that. It's the first time we're doing this format. We're going to see how that kind of works out. But ideally, we are having this event every quarter of next year. That's the goal. We don't get paid really for it. So we're going to have to figure out like a sustainable model and stuff. It's been self funded so far, but yeah, we're hoping that at least from the projects that are coming out of it, then they can either go towards they can do office hours with Fulgur or Hivemind or Lightning Ventures and stuff to be able to possibly get funding because we need these products. Time and effort and resources have been put into them already. So why not get them to continue and actually fulfill have bigger impact. The other part is like maybe it's an open source project, maybe it's a public good, maybe it's not looking for those kind of funding. So we're going to have some presentations and stuff from Geyser, geyser.fund, which actually they built Geyser grants at our first hackathon.
Kevin Rooke - 00:46:43:
Oh, very cool.
Johns Beharry - 00:46:44:
Yeah, kind of wild but yeah, so not guys are fun. Guys are fun. Existed already, but the grants portion of it. And so like if you're a project or a team that's working on some open source or public good, then we can also connect you with Geyser or Opensats to explain the process and perhaps even help you create a campaign or something that you could do.
Kevin Rooke - 00:47:16:
Crowdfunding right. So now you've got a number of teams building, and I believe the Legends of Lightning tournaments started a couple of days ago. We're now recording on the 17th. I think it started on the 12th or 13th. Do you have any visibility into what projects people are trying to build so far? Has anyone come out with anything interesting, any surprises or any new Lightning use cases that you've seen today?
Johns Beharry - 00:47:41:
I read one today. I'm still trying to pirate through it or whatever. It was a contracts application. Lightning contracts app. So they want to kind of like I guess from my understanding of it, if you have a contract, let's say for a web design project that has certain deliverables and stuff, then they're going to do something to have those payments staggered and do an interface. On top of that, there's storage for sats. It's kind of interesting to be able to upload images and stuff and pay sats for it. It's one called agreement. So another really cool thing, I'm in Bulgaria now, right? Sofia and someone from the Bullfrog community reached out to me and said, hey, I noticed that you're in Bulgaria. Is it possible that we can meet up? I'm like, cool, sure. And then he's like telling me about his project and stuff like that. And it was like for me it was like a really nice moment because I'm just like pushing pixels and writing code and doing meetings and stuff like that. So it doesn't feel it's digital, you know what I mean? It's digital. And that was really special. I met someone else, Enriga, who said that after the hackathon he worked on some LNbits stuff. He kind of got really motivated to so he won second place. He kind of got motivated to like come into the space and like work full time. Yeah, that was also like, oh wow, it's not just talking head. There's people in Meetspace. Yeah. So we're also having a bunch of other Meetspace events happening. For example, in Pleb Lab, they have mentorship and stuff like that. They kicked off a couple of weekends ago. We've played a weekend, I think they're going to be giving some discounts for some space available there. There's plenty of TLV and Israel. There's some stuff in Miami popping off as well. So people are kind of, like, doing their own legends of events as well. I want to make it clear we're not trying to centralize these events or anything like that. What we're trying to do is, in this period of time, we're just trying to coordinate the community to have high impact on innovation. That's it.
Kevin Rooke - 00:50:37:
Johns Beharry - 00:50:38:
There's no agenda. Fulgur’s giving out the price money. We also are working with the Afro Bitcoin conference. They were going to have a hackathon as well. We're like, why divide people's attention? Let's just put that as a track. So they put up 10k for the Building for Africa track and yeah, it's just a time for the community to come together to innovate. And you also don't need to be like, a technical person. Right. So something that I'm trying to help people understand is, like, at these hackathons and stuff, they tend to be very coding heavy and there but there's a bunch of, like, most of these bitcoin community initiatives, like Bitcoin Beach, Cassie, the Bitcoin Mountain, Bitcoin Lake. Not all of them are, like, started with a technical person. So the goal that we're trying to push is innovation and bitcoin adoption globally or in Africa or wherever. Right. As per the tracks.
Kevin Rooke - 00:51:56:
Johns Beharry - 00:51:56:
And adoption can mean setting up, like, Kickstarting, a community, a local community, local circular economy of a bitcoin, printing some flyers, talking to people. Yeah.
Kevin Rooke - 00:52:11:
So you're looking for builders across the board, not just programmers.
Johns Beharry - 00:52:15:
Exactly. Yeah, because we need all types of people to be able to for bitcoin to take over. Right. We need people for marketing, design, whatever else.
Kevin Rooke - 00:52:29:
What's your sentiment on the health of the bitcoin builder community? If we call this, like, global community of people building things, what do we need more of? Where are the new people coming from? Do we have enough new people? Are these developers that were otherwise looking at different blockchains? Are they from web two? I just want your overall view on the health of the bitcoin builder ecosystem.
Johns Beharry - 00:52:59:
Yeah, I think we're in a transition phase now, especially with the Lightning Network. People are calling it the Cambrian Explosion. Right. A lot of people, like, past couple of years, they're like, things are really taking off and the speed of innovation is happening so fast. So where are they going to come from? They need to come from everywhere. And there's this concept of something called Steven Delon. He told me you guys are trying to target the at risk developers, developers who are super interested in or it could be developers, designers, whoever, but at risk folks, makers, builders, who they want to work on something innovative. They heard this new industry blockchain is kicking up. They have this perception that bitcoin is not going to offer them whatever. Or maybe they don't maybe they don't even know. Right. But with the marketing budget of Salona or Ethereum or something like that, it's going to attract them, definitely. Oh, look, cool design, cool toys, tutorials resources. Oh, let's go from there. Because it's easy. It's easy to get started on those platforms, right?
Kevin Rooke - 00:54:27:
Johns Beharry - 00:54:27:
So one, we have to target those people who are probably at risk of spending two, three years learning about these technologies, understanding wrong principles, building the wrong foundations, right. And then say, like, yeah, they're going to come back to bitcoin, right? Yeah, probably so. But now they have to start as a junior again.
Kevin Rooke - 00:54:57:
Johns Beharry - 00:54:59:
Why do that? Let's just get them now. And we need to make it very interesting. This is probably not going to be good for my image or whatever, but screw it. But I think I'm going to have to start going to Web3 and crypto conferences, right, to attract these developers. Yeah, exactly. Because when the network's down for Solana or this or that don't validate, Validators getting restarted on Discord, it's like, what? But say like, hey, you know, it never goes down. And I think there are people who are kind of like taking notice that things are happening in the bitcoin. Like exciting, fun things are happening in the bitcoin space, especially in the application layer. And it's starting to slowly come through. But we need to capture as many people from all walks of life, all whatever, and show them bitcoin. And I think what's going to get really interesting as well is that with this whole Taro thing and RGB and tokens and stuff like that, I find it kind of funny that people are talking about, like they call them assets. You're doing tokens. How are we going to deal with this as a community and keep the philosophy? Because shitcoins are coming, basically.
Kevin Rooke - 00:56:37:
Yeah. And when you think about is this a you know, you point to two different sides here. One is like, it could lead to more developers, it could lead to more builders, could lead to more excitement. And the other side is it could lead to more shitcoins. What are your thoughts on the pros and cons outweighing each other? What is this development of assets on bitcoin going to do to the bitcoin builder community? Is it net good or net bad?
Johns Beharry - 00:57:08:
Tokens On Bitcoin we have to face the reality, like straight on. That is what's happening. And it's an inevitability. Right. I saw Nydig sounds quite interesting. So they started an accelerator and they specifically said bitcoin Lightning and taro. I'm like, that's interesting that they're making such a focus on this. Right. So, I mean, I know, like, it's going to be an easy sell saying, like, you go to the Web3 folks and stuff. It's like, hey, bitcoin has tokens now, right? They're going to come. And don't get me wrong, there's like some super talented people who are like great designers, great developers and stuff like that, building really cool interfaces and products and stuff like this, just on wrong infrastructure. Listen, for me, I am a bit agnostic. I'm like, hey, the only interest I have is for Bitcoin to be that single chain, that single thing. And whatever you want to do, it's up to you, but just build it on Bitcoin, right? I'm not going to be the one who tries to censor whatever. I do have my own philosophies on the kinds of things that I would like to see and stuff like that. But I can't control what people do or build. We, as a community, we just have to help them understand some of the principles and philosophies that we like. Those new people coming in and stuff to understand the philosophies and the principles that we value so much in this space so that hopefully it doesn't go that route in which you see a bunch of people getting rekt. But what are some of the use.
Kevin Rooke - 00:59:05:
Cases you want to see? You mentioned you have your own philosophies and ideas. What do you think is missing right now in the bitcoin community?
Johns Beharry - 00:59:13:
Well, I mean, with regards to that statement, it's more along the lines of, like, I want to be able to I primarily want to just transact with Bitcoin and have that store of value kind of thing. I don't necessarily want all these tokens and stuff, but that's what I kind of meant. I don't want to have to have, like, a bunch of people. I travel a lot, so I have a bunch of different currencies. I don't want to have that again. I'm like, I'm cool with Bitcoin, let's go. But the kind of stuff that I would like to see or like the things that are coming up, let me actually pull this up. There's a few other projects that I saw. This was a cool one, like LNCal. Do you know about it? I think. LNCal. Yeah. That's just a very obvious, brilliant idea, I think. And I just want to see more stuff like that, more like utilities. I want to see some stuff being built for local ecosystems and stuff like something that's very local that might only have a few thousand people or whatever using it, but it really solves a problem for them. So I want people to start solving their local problems with Bitcoin, ultimately. Yeah, that's the kind of thing I want to see.
Kevin Rooke - 01:00:40:
Yeah, I think LNCal is really cool and I think this is one of those apps that could get a lot of adoption outside of the hardcore bitcoin group. Is that because it's monetizing your time, it's like a different angle on monetizing your time than Vida is? Vida has more messages and livestreams and calls and things like that. LNCal seems to be taking the approach of booking your time and having time slots. So if you're a consultant and your hourly rate is $100 an hour or $500 an hour or whatever it is, a lawyer, if you run a hair salon, whatever you do, if you have a time, you can now monetize that natively, right. In the app that people use to book their slot. Right. It's like you don't need Google Calendar and the additional payment. You don't need to add in all these different layers. It's just one app. Book and pay settled instantly. Some pretty incredible stuff. I'm definitely excited about that one.
Johns Beharry - 01:01:44:
How about booking by the minute?
Kevin Rooke - 01:01:50:
Yeah, you can stream it and all of a sudden there's a lot of streaming use cases too that I think are relatively under explored. I'm excited to see what people build there. Do you think that Bitcoin builders are efficiently allocating their resources to the projects that matter today? Or do you see like a misallocation of resources anywhere in the ecosystem that you wish people would guide people towards building certain use cases over others? You mentioned Taro being one, but are there any other places where you think you wish you could kind of just like nudge people towards? Here's some interesting stuff that needs to be built and no one's doing it yet.
Johns Beharry - 01:02:40:
Well, like, I have mentioned a few of them, but I was thinking about that very question recently. I saw there was some maker.
Kevin Rooke - 01:02:52:
Johns Beharry - 01:02:52:
Can'T remember who it was, but they were working on some stuff. I'm like, it would be really cool if this person created this kind of use case. I'd love to see what they did, but they were actually working on something very technical that's probably going to have like developers using it instead of like a consumer use case. Right. And I thought about it and I'm like that's probably a better place for them to be anyway because they have this knowledge about the hardcore technical parts of it and their work is going to make it easier for other people. So I'm like, okay, so maybe how we should look at it again is more people in the space. Let's get more people in the space. We don't need to reallocate anything. We just need more people looking at it. Companies are having a hard time hiring, right.
Kevin Rooke - 01:03:48:
And maybe this is a good lead into the last topic I want to discuss, which is grants, and specifically like open source grants. And I know you've been a recipient of the grant with the Bitcoin Design Guide and with OKCoin. Can you talk to me about the health of that ecosystem and how we get companies to fund these grants and get people excited about building open source software?
Johns Beharry - 01:04:14:
Yeah. A big shout out to Connor from Spiral Moneyball, steve Lee, Jason from OKCoin, and Stephan for the recent grant that I got, that's being all going towards the bolt.fun ecosystem to try to develop that and get more people into the space, the grant with Spiral that I was doing research on the other payments privacy and contributing to the Bitcoin Design Guide and stuff. It helped me for a year and a half focus on something that I wanted to do for such a long time and contribute there. With my design agency, I have been doing R and D kind of projects internally using my own money and stuff. I have a tendency to do that quite a bit. But it's always something kind of like on the side, right? Being able to have no strings attached, like the OKCoin one, like the spiral one. No strings attached. Just getting to focus down on a specific topic and go really deep into it and not have to worry about like, having to pick up a client or something like that. It is such a fortunate position to be in, and I'm super thankful for having that opportunity. And I know that there are not that many companies and organizations giving out grants and stuff. There is not as much capital for even VCs and open source as other industries. So I don't necessarily know how we increase that amount of capital and stuff. Maybe it's through use cases and having that kind of like unicorn bitcoin startup. Are there any unicorn bitcoin startups?
Kevin Rooke - 01:06:25:
Actually, I think there's well, definitely bitcoin company. A lot of the exchanges, the big exchanges, of course, Coinbase is one of the early ones, $50 billion valuation at some point, I think. But if we're talking about like pure to bitcoin or even Lightning, I think someone like Strike would be pretty close. I think they raised 80 or 90 million just recently. If they sold 10% of the company, that's almost unicorn territory. I imagine. Lightning Labs is probably pretty close as well. I think they raised 75 million a while ago.
Johns Beharry - 01:07:00:
Zebedee recently raised how much?
Kevin Rooke - 01:07:03:
They raised 35 recently. So that puts them probably in 300, 400, 500 million territory.
Johns Beharry - 01:07:13:
Somebody recently raised 200.
Kevin Rooke - 01:07:15:
Oh, interesting. I didn't know about the blockstream one.
Johns Beharry - 01:07:19:
Kevin Rooke - 01:07:19:
So it seems like there's a number of companies that are on the cusp of that unicorn status. But I wonder specifically with grants, I came into the bitcoin ecosystem and I first heard about grants, the idea of grants through bitcoin. I didn't even know what a grant was prior to entering the bitcoin space. And I wonder, do you think that's the right funding model for a lot of these projects?
Johns Beharry - 01:07:50:
Is it the right funding model? I think we just need a diversity of funding models. And the reason why I brought up the unicorn question and stuff like that is because again, it's probably going to go save in line with my answer about the allocation of people and their time. We just need more money. We need more money into the space. I know there's like a few projects that I know that have been trying to raise some money and stuff. And it's been difficult even for us. It's been kind of difficult because we don't have a business model, right? We have no business model. So we kind of have to rely on things like grants or whatever or I'm going to have to go back to my day job doing design consulting. A grant allows you to focus in for a period of time. Of course there's risks. Perhaps something doesn't get delivered or whatever. The person who receives it doesn't do what they said or whatever. A life can happen. But I think it's a good model and it is very helpful. I know BTCPay Server, they have a great community, but the people there are putting in a lot of time building some fantastic software and that's grant based stuff. There's also bounties, right? So there are some people that grants don't necessarily work for also. Because if you don't want to do such a big commitment, right, then maybe a bounty works for you, right? You could do bounties this grant. What are the mechanisms? Are there?
Kevin Rooke - 01:09:51:
I think there's like the VC approach and there's like building a business model and there's probably a handful of different approaches someone could take. I guess if you were to give a piece of advice for someone who wants to build, is curious and interested in bitcoin, and is listening to the show saying, I want to contribute, how do they approach the task of getting a grant or finding bounties? What are your kind of like learnings, having gone through that process yourself?
Johns Beharry - 01:10:30:
I think you need to do the proof of work effectively. Before I got my grant with Square, I was already working on these things. It's all proof of work. We're on the decentralized proof of work chain. So it's all about proof of work here, right. And if you do your proof of work, you integrate with the communities, you start contributing and stuff like that. You show that you're committed, then your likelihood of getting a grant is higher. If you just show up and say like, hey, I want a grant, I haven't done anything yet, then you're most likely not going to get it. Right? But if you show that you're committed to the community or project or whatever it is that you're committed to it, that you're in for the long run, then you could do a proposal and get through that way. For things like Bounties. There's several projects like Alby getalby.com. There's Breez Breez.technology. There's wasabi who else? LNBits. I think all of them do have bounty programs. Blue Wallet as well has some bounty programs. So basically check up any of those like wallets or they might have some bounty programs in which you can take some work. I know wasabi some years ago they did design like some artwork, competition and stuff. So this is kind of cool. And also I'm going to show Legends of Lightning.
Kevin Rooke - 01:12:24:
There you go.
Johns Beharry - 01:12:25:
Yeah. So legends of. Lightning. If you want to show off your proof of work, right, if you want to link up with some other people to learn from them, it's always fun to learn with other people, to build with other people. Great products, great projects, get built by teams, not by just a single individual. I guess even bitcoin, right? It might have been sparked by one person, but it wouldn't exist like it is today without a community, right? Right. And people working together, fixing things and what not. Makers.bolt.fun. And what we are trying to do, we have this global hackathon in which you can kind of like show off. Sorry, you could link up with other people in the community to build something. And there's like about three bitcoin in prizes. The top prize is one bitcoin, which, again, nice. I'm like, can we participate? I could participate. But there's one bitcoin as the grand prize. There's two runners up, which gets 0.5 each. And then for the two tracks, there's like 5002 five and one something for first second and third. And then there's a design award that you can also get. So you could be stacking a lot of sats, you could be stacking bitcoin, essentially. You could literally stack bitcoin there. And that could be like a good few months or a year funding for your project or whatever. And along the way you get to like, learn about the tech, you get to learn about how to build, you get to meet other people. We're having like actually right now, there's a talk on Taro, introducing Taro from Lightning Labs that's being presented. There's a whole series on Tokens on Lightning. We have also community banking and setting up your circular economy. Voltage just announced that they're doing some events as well and providing some resources there. So, yeah, I think it's a good way to get into the industry, especially if you are interested. You've been on the sidelines kind of watching. And also we have this bitcoin designers fund, right, which is like a design, like a design kind of like, let's call it like a program competition kind of thing that's happening within the bitcoin design community that's connected to the Legends of Lightning Tournament. So you can start off this like seven days, though, or maybe by the time this goes out, to be a few days, but basically you're able to just focus on the design part and the initial part of the Legends of Lighting Tournament through the designer fund and then you transition that design into something functional.
Kevin Rooke - 01:15:43:
Right? Very cool. I want to finish this off with a segment I do at the end of every show called the Lightning Round. Okay, are you ready?
Johns Beharry - 01:15:52:
Kevin Rooke - 01:15:53:
I hope you're enjoying the show so far. I just want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor, Stakwork. Stakwork is a Lightning powered platform that generates high quality transcripts from all of your audio or video content. They combine AI engines and hundreds of human workers all over the world who are paid over the Lightning Network to assemble these transcripts. And that's what lets Stakwork create better, faster and less expensive transcripts than anyone else. I've used Stakwork to transcribe all of my episodes on my personal website. You can check that out. I just get the Stakwork file, copy paste and go. No additional editing required. If you want to learn more about Stakwork, you can visit stakwork.com. That is stakwork.com. I'm going to put you on the spot here with this one. What is the best designed app in the bitcoin ecosystem today?
Johns Beharry - 01:16:53:
I like pine.
Kevin Rooke - 01:16:55:
You like what?
Johns Beharry - 01:16:56:
Pine. Have you spelled P-I-N-E-I don't think I've heard of it. Yeah, exactly. What is it? It's a Lightning wallet. It has some contact based stuff. It's a bit old, I think it's still doing like, on chain related things, but I just love the design patterns and stuff that they've introduced in it. It's a mobile wallet.
Kevin Rooke - 01:17:20:
Okay, I'll check it out. Are there any books that have meaningfully changed your view of the world?
Johns Beharry - 01:17:35:
I don't read too many books, I'm not going to lie. I'm more of like, deep into research papers or any research papers.
Kevin Rooke - 01:17:44:
Those count too.
Johns Beharry - 01:17:49:
Okay. Anonymity enjoys company.
Kevin Rooke - 01:17:53:
Johns Beharry - 01:17:56:
Anonymity enjoys company. I think that's what it's called. It's a paper. Nothing was sent to me a couple of years ago and it really helped form my idea about privacy and stuff like this. Okay, check it out.
Kevin Rooke - 01:18:13:
If you could only hold one asset for the next decade and it could not be bitcoin, what would you hold?
Johns Beharry - 01:18:27:
Damn. Damn you, Kevin. I guess property land. Yeah, I'm quite interested these days to get some bolt.fun hub, spaces and stuff set up.
Kevin Rooke - 01:18:54:
Very cool. And then finally, if you can give a shout out to one builder in the Bitcoin Lightning Space, someone you admire, someone you think is doing great work, you get to choose. Who do you want to shout out?
Johns Beharry - 01:19:07:
I'm going to give a shout out to Ed Pratt. He's making all of this happen with bolt fun doing all the operations and stuff, and I couldn't do it without him. So, yeah, he's the designer. He's also taking up some roles in operations and product management and stuff like that. So, yeah, I have to give a shout out there.
Kevin Rooke - 01:19:30:
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for taking the time. I really enjoyed the conversation. Where can listeners go to learn more about bolt.fun and legends of Lightning?
Johns Beharry - 01:19:41:
Makers.bolt.fun. That's it. And we say there we want to do things together and we want to make it fun because fun means it's accessible, fun means it's enjoyable, fun means it's friendly. And fun is also mandatory because it's in the name.
Kevin Rooke - 01:19:57:
Love it. Thanks again for the time and I hope we can do it again soon.
Johns Beharry - 01:20:01:
Take care thanks so much for having me.